Axver ([info]axver) wrote,
@ 2007-12-19 23:50:00
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Current mood: nervous
Current music:'Leper Jerusalem' by Melechesh
Entry tags:agnosticism, christianity, conversion, deconversion, religion, theology

A theological revision; a clarification, if you will.
In about a week, I'll be catching up with Johnno. Those of you who've been reading my journal since 2004 will remember Johnno - Mr Johnson - as the teacher of my Study Of Religion class at high school, the one class that was actually intellectually stimulating and a ground for considerable debate. I held and still hold Johnno in the highest respect, and I am very much looking forward to seeing him for the first time in over three years. There is a lot to talk about. There's just one thing that may surprise him, and that I am a bit nervous about saying.

I am indeed nervous about saying it here too. I have always written about religion nervously, concerned with what people may think. Some of you have encouraged me in such a selfless - and intellectually stimulating - manner that I owe you an immense debt of gratitude. The only problem is that I have headed in a direction opposite to what may have seemed apparent in, say, 2004. I think this started to be made manifest in late 2005, and certainly my theological entries from 2006 and especially this last year have pointed in one clear direction; they have revealed a clear loss of faith and a movement from pretty mainstream Protestantism to the outer agnostic fringes of Christianity. To be honest, over at least the last half a year, the only thing keeping me attached to Christianity in any way has been people who I hold in the absolute highest regard and profoundly respect. I do not wish to let them down. I do not want to feel that they have wasted time, energy, and a lot more. Most of all, I do not want to cause any deterioration in any friendships.

But I have to be honest. Since July, I have claimed to be an "agnostic Christian". This has evolved into "an agnostic in the Christian tradition" or, in the last couple of months, simply "agnostic" to those receptive towards it. So, with sincere nervousness and apologies to those I may disappoint, here goes: intellectually, I do not accept the most basic claims of Christianity and find the evidence to be insufficient and largely unpersuasive. I am agnostic towards the existence of a deity as I believe this is the only position I can affirm in full intellectual honesty. My interest in theology is not at all weakened, and I still wish to engage in discussions that I have enjoyed for the last few years - indeed, they may be even more rigorous and enjoyable exchanges of ideas and perspectives than before. I am definitely still interested in reading Christian literature; I am not a man of only one perspective. I still feel a connection and a debt to Christianity; for example, although my ethical and political systems of ideas can and intentionally do function independently, their development was of course influenced by Christianity. I also believe that there is a place within some conceptualisations and frameworks of Christianity for agnosticism, and indeed that agnosticism can be edifying for the Christian; I will write about this more at a later date.

I do not consider myself to be a former Christian or an ex-Christian. I consider myself an intellectual who continually investigates ideas and, upon encountering new evidence and propositions, re-evaluates presently held positions. This is by no means the end of my Christian, religious, or theological journey. This is in fact just the beginning. I look forward to many more years - indeed, decades - of fruitful exchange between myself and others about theology and religion of all kinds, and I especially look forward to these exchanges with those of you who have been such invaluable companions and friends these last few years.

I am not leaving anything behind. I am just following academic principles and attempting to pursue intellectual honesty. I am, nonetheless, sorry. This has been something that has been extremely difficult for me to acknowledge and deal with, and writing this entry has not been easy either. I now have a very profound respect for those who have departed from one theological community to another, as what they experience must be considerably more internally tormenting than what I have experienced. I have comparatively few ties to religion. For example, none of my close family members are particularly religious and I have never belonged to a church. The only struggle for me has been a nervousness and a fear of rejection or disappointment from people I hold very dear. Right now, as I post this entry and wonder how people will reply, if anybody will reply, those feelings are really at their peak. Again, I am sorry. However, I cannot be intellectually dishonest. I simply cannot.


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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-19 01:17 pm UTC (link)
It seems to me that you've been treading almost exactly the same path as I have. I, too, have found this very difficult to put into words, but you've literally taken them out of my mouth.

I became a Christian at the age of 15 in March 1990 - it was quite sudden and dramatic, and very much surprised my almost entirely atheist family, especially my dad. During the more difficult bits of my life, it was enormously comforting, and it has done a lot of good in my life, but I too have reached the point where much of it seems somewhat implausible at best, and downright ridiculous at worst, and I can't in all honesty say I'm a functioning, believing Christian. Certainly not in the conservative-evangelical mould, anyway.

It presents me with a problem in that I very, very rarely get a chance to be honest about this with anyone. Abby and I argue whenever we speak about it - her faith remains much more solid than mine, and I think she finds it shocking that I'm on the verge of wanting to just chuck it in. I go to church because she appreciates me doing so, and it means a lot to her. I love her and I don't want to hurt her feelings, but to be honest, I find church a frustrating and almost completely pointless activity these days. I spend most of my time there thinking about what I'd rather be doing. I was certainly not always like this - it's only fairly recently that I've come to feel this way, and it's hard to put a finger on why.

I think I really struggle with the dogmatic, often very rigid and negative, ideas I come across in my church. This has pretty much poisoned the well for me - I've become a lot more liberal over the years, and although I know plenty of Christians I can agree with more readily, I feel very much that the negative things I've come across have discredited everything about Christianity, and I'd rather just walk away from it all.

Like you, I've wondered about what good I've got from it, and I think my strong sense of ethics and social justice, and a desire for honesty and openness are the things I'll cherish the most. But...the idea that we're a small band of people fighting all the evil in the world, and the only ones destined for Heaven, flies in the face of all that I see and feel right now. I'm constantly told I should be out there evangelising, and I just think...no. I can't honestly say that I think this is good for people - there's other ways to solve our problems.

I go to a (very liberal) Christian arts and music festival every summer, called Greenbelt, which I've always got a lot from, but I was a little shocked this year by the fact that the teaching and worship pretty much left me cold. All the fun I had was down to camping with a group of old friends - and that's something I could do anywhere.

I too feel like I've let people down, and I feel I have to suffer with this in silence. Once you're in a church, you're made to feel like a complete failure if you want to leave, and walking away is hard.

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-19 03:44 pm UTC (link)
Others have gone through what you've gone through. Or similar, anyway. If reading other's stories would help, check out this thread @ IIDB: http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=35947

(For a long and spectacular story involving American fundamentalists, look up Lauri / christ on a stick 's story. It's over a hundred pages in MSWord and rich with introspective detail. "A Salvation Story.")

I hope that you will be able to free yourself from particular sticky dogmas. I know what it's like to be trying to get something out of my head and only after a long while be able to. You're on your way (if not already there) to a big one: you don't need God to have meaning or purpose in your life.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-19 08:04 pm UTC (link)
you don't need God to have meaning or purpose in your life.

There's a lot of people in churches that go around saying exactly the opposite, and I do find that annoying.

The link was interesting, but I'm certainly not going to rush down the atheist path. I just want to work out what to keep, and what to leave behind.

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[info]axver
2007-12-20 09:39 am UTC (link)
Christ On A Stick's story is stunning. I remember I began reading it not aware of quite how long it would be. I was engrossed and read it in a single sitting. I don't know if I would have the strength to go through that. Simply making this LJ entry was quite hard enough.

By the way, do you actually post at IIDB? I'm registered there but it seems so hostile and I've never been willing to post.

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-20 05:38 pm UTC (link)
COAS' story is definitely stunning. I often bordered on being overwhelmed--I could see how it was representative of American fundamentalism, I thought of the influence of evangelicalism on politics, I saw many people I know in the voices that she battled (I was reminded of CF, too)... and I cannot for a moment blame her in any way.

I don't post at IIDB because it seems so hostile. >_> I also don't "do" apologetics anymore and I can't say there's much in the way of academic interest.

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 09:02 am UTC (link)
I almost felt like I was reading a checklist. Just about every single issue I have with fundies cropped up got ticked off. I don't know how she lived it. I honestly came out of it a little angry. I don't understand how a socio-religious culture that stifling could even exist. I would've thought that it would suffocate itself from existence.

Every time I've thought of weighing in on IIDB, I've luckily thought better of it. Do you still post on CF? I've just totally given up, especially with the sale to some guy who views the community merely as "eyeballs" viewing pages. I don't want him to profit from me visiting the place. I also can't stand the strong anti-intellectualism that flows through the place. My patience with anti-intellectuals is as non-existent as the fundie conceptualisation of a deity!

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-21 04:38 pm UTC (link)
The way I understand it is that society is presented as a "given," something already there and unchangeable. This is mostly done through coercing the individual to accept powerful authority structures in childhood. The individual either adapts through accepting socialization (resistance included) or suffers from the various negative social responses. So, as long as a community doesn't have extensive contact, which would involve two behaviors originating from two different kinds of social organization, or has self-sustaining devices, e.g. saying that all who aren't with us are going to damnation, tradition or something like it can be maintained fairly well. There are of course other factors.

It's sociologically interesting at any rate. :P There are several publications on fundamentalist groups, too.

I still post on CF for various reasons. It's... ah, difficult. The trick is to read the language very carefully and avoid the majority of topics. And figure out why I'm there in the first place. Some guy posted a topic asking if Christians should support freedom of religion because it might promote sin. Avoid. Any topic spelling "atheist" wrong. Avoid. Any topic involving explicit discussion of gender ("I don't think I'll meet the perfect girl"). Avoid. Any topic about being confused about something ("What is a dickfor?"). Avoid.

But I do from time to time post about exegetical matters, the goal being that someone might find it interesting or remember it later in life. To use an unnecessarily religious metaphor, I'm there to plant certain seeds. I avoid advice topics because my social context and personality is uh, quite different.

On the topic of a dickfor, one of my friends recently used this joke on another:

Hey A, I'm going to get you a present.
What???
It's a dickfor!
What's a dickfor... oh.
(laughter)

Now, to shopping. I'm baking cookies today for the first time.

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[info]axver
2007-12-22 03:44 am UTC (link)
Have you read Malise Ruthven's Fundamentalism: The Search for Meaning? I borrowed that from the library last semester while writing an essay on religion and terrorism and rather than just taking notes on a pertinent page or chapter, I found myself reading the whole thing. It's a great examination of the fundamentalist mindset, of how it is both a rejection of modernity and revolutionary in its desire to transform society. Pluralism and the possibility of other answers is unthinkable and must be countered. But my fundamental confusion is how someone could live in such a void lacking intellectual curiosity. I suppose it comes down to the fact that people like absolutes, they like to think they have the answers, and fundamentalism provides that, plus a bit of an ego boost in the sense of "we're right and all those fools out there need Jesus".

I found myself giving up on CF when pretty much everything on Serious Stuff met my "avoid" criteria (I especially found it hilarious how many people thought relationship questions qualified as valid topics), and the debate section was just too infuriating. At least Serious Stuff never attracted complete morons like AV1611VET and his KJV-Only-ism.

'I avoid advice topics because my social context and personality is uh, quite different.'

Heh, yes, me too. Society never ceases to amaze me with its peculiarities, though I apparently am the peculiar one to most people.

And haha, that dickfor joke is so terrible that I actually laughed.

'Now, to shopping. I'm baking cookies today for the first time.'

Good luck with that! I've taken to doing more and more baking myself to save money. Now I've got more extremely chocolatey muffins than I know what to do with. Lunches for a month? Sounds good to me.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-21 01:14 pm UTC (link)
Can you post a link to this?

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-21 04:14 pm UTC (link)
Sure thing!

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72552

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[info]axver
2007-12-20 09:37 am UTC (link)
'I became a Christian at the age of 15 in March 1990 - it was quite sudden and dramatic, and very much surprised my almost entirely atheist family, especially my dad.'

Your comment about treading the same path becomes almost eerie in light of what I just quoted, as I too converted suddenly (though perhaps not dramatically) at age 15 and this took particularly my father by surprise. He was also the first who really penetrated the faith I had, through his stance that the Old Testament is just an assortment of myths that we today needn't take seriously. I couldn't get that out of my mind.

'I too have reached the point where much of it seems somewhat implausible at best, and downright ridiculous at worst'

For me, I think my intellectual processes have moved faster than my self-identification. I realised something was clearly up when I was reading some Christian writing, including some of my own, and just found it seemingly absurd and flying in the face of mere reality. I think what was pivotal for my intellectual transition was the moment when I rejected the notion of sin, with specific reference to original sin. I'm a pacifist, I affirm individual self-worth, and I cannot buy into a theology that says people are stained and need redemption simply because they exist! From there, everything swiftly fell apart.

'I think I really struggle with the dogmatic, often very rigid and negative, ideas I come across in my church. This has pretty much poisoned the well for me - I've become a lot more liberal over the years, and although I know plenty of Christians I can agree with more readily, I feel very much that the negative things I've come across have discredited everything about Christianity, and I'd rather just walk away from it all.'

YES. I, uh, emphatically agree; you've described exactly how I've felt. I hold certain Christian figures in very high esteem, particularly Paul Tillich and Søren Kierkegaard, but the regressive and dogmatic framework of Christianity that seems to be prevalent is, in a word, repulsive. I could rant for pages, but - to use a topically appropriate pun - I suspect I would be preaching to the choir.

'But...the idea that we're a small band of people fighting all the evil in the world, and the only ones destined for Heaven, flies in the face of all that I see and feel right now.'

Perhaps you're already aware, but if you aren't, the concept of eternal damnation for non-believers was initially not the predominant afterlife belief. In the early days of the Christian church, universalism (i.e. all shall obtain eternal life, often with some kind of Purgatory-esque purification beforehand) and annihilationism (i.e. the "saved" obtain eternal life while non-believers simply cease to exist) competed for ideological hegemony. Eternal damnation's rise was later. I considered myself a universalist in my later Christian stages and would still be one now were it not for the whole agnosticism thing, heh.

'I go to a (very liberal) Christian arts and music festival every summer, called Greenbelt'

Funnily enough, I've heard of that, though that's because I co-maintain a U2 setlist database and U2 played there in 1981, back before Bono got his own messiah complex.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-20 12:32 pm UTC (link)
I feel very much the same about the Old Testament, and when I now hear preaching on it that attempts to make it highly significant to modern life, I just switch off. It is, at best, a collection of history, poetry, allegory and fantasy, which is certainly interesting and can be used to establish some general principles, but trying to use it as a guide to life is pushing things a bit too far. The New Testament is much more relevant, because even apart from the Virgin Birth, resurrection etc., Jesus was remarkable and had a lot of challenging and important things to say, that can still teach us a lot today.

I think what was pivotal for my intellectual transition was the moment when I rejected the notion of sin, with specific reference to original sin.

Yup. I started getting heartily sick of being told I'm a complete failure every week. There seems to be a positively masochistic widespread acceptance of this in many churches, that I now find quite shocking, and constant exposure to this doctrine must rip people's self-esteem to shreds. It certainly generates a lot of unhelpful feelings. It's supposed to make you feel better - that you need to depend on God etc. etc. - but it's ultimately very hollow. I prefer to see people as basically good, with a tendency to fail, rather than basically bad who can occasionally do good with a bit of divine intervention.

Another thing leading on from this that bugs me is the idea that Christians are somehow the world's moral guardians, and that without God in our lives, nothing good can exist in them. I followed the party line completely when I was younger, and this caused me to utterly fail to cope when a Christian friend of mine told me she was a lesbian. I treated her horrifically badly and, needless to say, lost her friendship. I think this might have been the trigger for more critical analysis of what I'd been taught. I've lost touch with her now, and eight years on, I still feel horrified about the way I acted, and I desperately want to tell her just how sorry I am for being such a moron.

Even in my very unquestioning days as a Christian, I never thought about Heaven all that much, and I've got to the point now of thinking that the afterlife is not really relevant. Given that all we can guarantee is the here and now, we should live our lives to the full, and not waste them in the hope of some eternal reward that will almost certainly never materialise. So many Christians seem to be motivated by fear, and I refuse to let something that negative be the guiding force in my life. I'm not scared of Hell now, and I'm pretty sure I never was.

The "one size fits all" idea, that conservative evangelical faith is the only hope to avoid eternal damnation and the only way to get any purpose in your life, is a concept that disgusts me more and more all the time.

U2's performance is part of Greenbelt legend. I didn't attend the festival myself until 1994, and I've been there most years since, but U2's set is still fondly recalled by the hardcore oldies that were there...and ever year rumours circulate that they're going to come back!

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 10:10 am UTC (link)
I honestly find a lot of the Old Testament to be strongly off-putting. Much of it reads to me as an attempt to sanctify the political and military actions of Israel and its various predecessor and successor groupings. The various genocides supposedly ordained by God make my stomach turn; this really was what caused me to lose any belief that the Bible is inerrant or even divinely inspired. Myself and [info]tinandcopper have discussed this at length; he is considerably more knowledgeable about the precise cultural context of much of the literature than I. I tend to bring a political science perspective. What I have drawn from the discussions is how firmly rooted to its surrounding culture the Old Testament is, and that in itself makes me think "well, if it were truly divinely inspired, would it not transcend those cultural roots to speak as succinctly and clearly to all cultures?" Yet much of it is, as you say, not exactly a guide to life. Nor to science ... don't even get me started on the first chapter of Genesis or Noah's Ark! I remember as a child thinking they were just cute stories for kids and I was stunned to find some people take them seriously.

'I prefer to see people as basically good, with a tendency to fail, rather than basically bad who can occasionally do good with a bit of divine intervention.'

I would very strongly agree. In light of the incredible achievements of humanity, I cannot possibly accept that we are innately bad people. What is of most concern to me is the consequences of the original sin thesis. Firstly, I am surprised it has not had more widespread grave psychological implications. I follow Fundies Say The Darndest Things, and one frequent theme in submissions is how "worthless" either the author or people in general are; some submissions have contained so much self-loathing that I have been genuinely concerned for the mental stability of the author. Secondly, writing off individuals as innately bad seems open to all kinds of abuse.

By that I'm referring to the whole moral guardians thing. I think that most quarters of Christianity have no place to claim to be moral guardians. While a positive attitude marginalises immoral deeds as failings, the negative original sin attitude accepts them as the inherent consequence of a sinful nature. It may rail against them, but it does not - it cannot - marginalise them. In any case, I do not believe it is genuinely moral to behave in a certain way simply because you fear God's wrath; that is selfishness, a desire to do something for your own gain. Genuine morality behaves in a certain way because it is the good and decent thing to do.

That really ties in with what you say about fear too. I know some people who feel compelled to evangelise because they sincerely fear that someone will otherwise burn for all eternity. I cannot even begin to fathom that mindset. I never felt compelled to evangelise, and I resented the implication that I was a failure as a Christian for that. Furthermore, I just cannot see the supposed compassion in such evangelism; it is hardly compassionate to say "you and everybody you love will burn if you don't accept this one particular doctrine". I certainly found more peace within Christianity when I became a universalist and rejected the idea of Hell; I think I have even more peace now that I am agnostic. It is like removing a weight from my shoulders.

And huh, I didn't realise U2 had established such a legacy with that Greenbelt performance! It is a great set though; there's a bootleg floating around and the band are on. It's a remarkable turnaround from a week beforehand, when they played a woeful set at Slane Castle in Ireland. What amuses me is that they played An Cat Dubh, a song about sex, but you say the festival is very liberal, so perhaps it's not as surprising as I once thought ...

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-21 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Much of it reads to me as an attempt to sanctify the political and military actions of Israel and its various predecessor and successor groupings.

Unfortunately, it's still being used like this today. Also, although many Christians adopt an all-or-nothing approach - i.e. it's either all true, or none of it is - there's still a great deal of selectivity when it comes to using the OT. So...people will happily use it to have a go at gay people, but they won't heed the prohibitions on eating shellfish or wearing clothes made from mixed fibres.

don't even get me started on the first chapter of Genesis or Noah's Ark!

These are allegories used to teach general principles to people in a completely non-scientific society. As such, they are interesting and can teach us something, but attempting to use them to claim absolute truth is really pushing things. So much time and energy is wasted on the evolution/creation debate, which I think is just an enormous red herring.

That really ties in with what you say about fear too. I know some people who feel compelled to evangelise because they sincerely fear that someone will otherwise burn for all eternity. I cannot even begin to fathom that mindset.

Neither can I, although I did when I was younger. It all falls down when you ask people what Heaven will be like - they say it will be a place of no sadness, but what if none of your loved ones are there with you? Apparently, you won't be troubled by this, which shows up the whole doctrine as being extremely selfish and ultimately not very caring.

I firmly believe that faith is a private matter.

but you say the festival is very liberal, so perhaps it's not as surprising as I once thought ...

Greenbelt is possibly unique, and I think it's very special as a result. It's often wound up the conservative parts of the church, and done some rather controversial things. It certainly provides plenty of food for thought, unlike other Christian events which go out of their way to be uncontroversial, and therefore bland and ultimately not very useful.

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 01:02 pm UTC (link)
'Also, although many Christians adopt an all-or-nothing approach - i.e. it's either all true, or none of it is - there's still a great deal of selectivity when it comes to using the OT. So...people will happily use it to have a go at gay people, but they won't heed the prohibitions on eating shellfish or wearing clothes made from mixed fibres.'

You have no idea how much this irritates me. I used to participate on a Christian messageboard and I just could not take it any more in about August this year, and the selectivity of the literalist crowd was a major factor. If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is intellectual inconsistency. If you are going to claim that the Bible must be taken literally and that every chapter and verse is divinely inspired, then actually take it seriously! What most amuses me is that these are the people who are most likely to level accusations at other Christians, primarily those on the liberal end of the spectrum, of "picking and choosing" Bible passages to suit their "sinful lifestyle".

'So much time and energy is wasted on the evolution/creation debate, which I think is just an enormous red herring.'

I totally agree. You should see the evolution/creation subforum at ChristianForums.com - these people could be out feeding the hungry, helping the poor, and treating the sick, but they instead spend hours upon hours arguing the same stuff over and over again. Do they really think that Jesus wants them to waste time on petty arguments like that when they could be out loving their neighbour and practicing the Golden Rule?

'I firmly believe that faith is a private matter.'

Yep, that's what I've been saying over and over again ever since I gained any religious awareness. I sincerely hope the very public politicised faith of the US never makes it to Australia, though Hillsong has me worried.

And Greenbelt sounds pretty fantastic. A Christian festival that has had U2 and Midnight Oil play there? Sounds right up my alley. I know that the Axver of three years ago would have especially loved it.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-21 01:13 pm UTC (link)
What most amuses me is that these are the people who are most likely to level accusations at other Christians, primarily those on the liberal end of the spectrum, of "picking and choosing" Bible passages to suit their "sinful lifestyle".

Yup, this bugs me as well. The thing is, some of the Bible's content is clearly culturally-obsolete, and some of it isn't, and there's a lot of argument about which is which. Ultimately, the "Bible-believing" Christians (surely there's no other kind?) like to have a go at the "liberals" not because they're not "Bible-believing", but because they interpret things differently. How can we possibly know which interpretation is the right one? To say we know exactly what Scripture is saying, and exactly how we should apply it, is saying that our particular view has divine approval over all others, and that's just plain arrogance and an overwhelming need to be right.

I see no reason why evolution and creation have to be mutually exclusive. But you know what? I don't give a toss. I don't know how I got here, but here I am - let's make the best of it.

I sincerely hope the very public politicised faith of the US never makes it to Australia, though Hillsong has me worried.

Are Hillsong very political? Apart from containing people with names displaying an alarming lack of vowels, I don't know much about them, although I've heard a lot of their songs, and they're the sort that make me want to vomit.

Re: Greenbelt...I think the Axver of now would probably like it too, as it really is a great place to debate, discuss and soak up ideas like a sponge, where there's no assumptions made about you, and you're not made to feel like an idiot if you disagree with anything.

Do you know what winds me up the most? If I tell a Christian I'm struggling, and I don't know what to believe, they'll automatically assume I want to keep hold of my faith and return to full confidence in my old orthodoxy. What if I don't? I don't want sympathy, and I don't want people thinking I've "backslidden". I hate that word.

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 01:38 pm UTC (link)
What I think is worst is when you try to seriously academically analyse the Bible, drawing upon historical, sociological, anthropological, and other research to understand the social context within which the text was written while minimising how blinded you are by your own context, and then someone comes along with some horribly dismissive comment about having "faith" and God "spoke" to me. I find those people to be horribly arrogant - not to mention offensively ignorant at times.

I like the attitude of "here I am, let's make the best of it". I think that's what the Gospels fundamentally have to say; let's create an equitable, generous, compassionate society where everybody is treated with dignity, respect, and love. That is all too often obscured by utterly pointless petty doctrinal squabbles. Let's be honest, how does the literal truthfulness or lack thereof impact your daily life? It doesn't.

As for Hillsong, they like to market themselves as friendly people with inoffensive, worshipful music (what I call "CCM claptrap"); the attempts at political influence are covert. The thing is, they are considerably wealthy and I am worried about the influence they are accumulating. The Assemblies of God are also seriously gaining in influence. The Family First party essentially evolved out of them, though they claim to be independent. What is most disturbing is that in 2004, Fundies First won a Senate seat in Victoria that should have gone to the Greens due to a peculiar preferencing shift made by Labour, and after the election this year, that Senator holds some of the balance of power!

One of these days, I'm going to have to come to Europe and go to some of your festivals, and by the sounds of it, Greenbelt deserves a place around the top of my priorities list.

'Do you know what winds me up the most? If I tell a Christian I'm struggling, and I don't know what to believe, they'll automatically assume I want to keep hold of my faith and return to full confidence in my old orthodoxy. What if I don't? I don't want sympathy, and I don't want people thinking I've "backslidden". I hate that word.'

I more than know the feeling. My preference is to bounce ideas around with no presumption of what anybody may want and simply see where the evidence and logic take me. I don't want anyone to talk me into anything; I want them to be part of the intellectual process, provide another perspective, correct glaring errors, etc. After my earliest struggles with faith, I very quickly learnt that the efforts of others to restore an individual's faith, though well-intentioned, have little lasting efficacy if the individual intellectually has difficulty affirming core doctrines.

And "backslidden" makes my skin crawl. It brings to mind "fire and brimstone" Southern Baptist preachers in a revival tent ...

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-21 04:58 pm UTC (link)
horribly dismissive comment about having "faith" and God "spoke" to me. I find those people to be horribly arrogant - not to mention offensively ignorant at times.

Christians feel they can't argue with something like that...but it's never really washed with me at all.

Let's be honest, how does the literal truthfulness or lack thereof impact your daily life? It doesn't.

Fully agreed.

I find it really frustrating that no-one seems able to discuss faith without an agenda. The atheists want to convert you as much as the Christians do. They both say "you can't sit on the fence", but to be honest I've been sitting there for a while, and it's quite comfy.

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[info]axver
2007-12-22 03:57 am UTC (link)
The whole "you need to take a leap of faith" thing just goes against pretty much everything I hold dear. For me, if I'm going to hold a viewpoint on a serious topic, it has to stand up to rigorous scrutiny. Now, if I submitted an article to an academic journal and stated that I can't actually prove what I am arguing is true and the reader has to take it on faith from me, I would never be allowed near a university campus again! What especially irks me is when this leap of faith is considered something higher than possessing actual verifiable knowledge. That it's one thing to have proof, but somehow a greater virtue to believe in the absence of proof. No, that's called being delusional.

What shits me about discussions with many atheists is that you come away feeling like you're intellectually inferior if you do not accept their viewpoint. Now, odds are that they are closer to the truth than a lot of guys behind pulpits on Sundays, but neither of them have all the evidence. I've found myself quite comfortable in my agnosticism rather quickly. I have no need to prove anything to anybody; I feel as if I have a lot less vested interests than I did. I certainly don't feel the defensive urges that I once did when the topic of religion arises, and that's nice.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-22 09:32 am UTC (link)
I've found myself quite comfortable in my agnosticism rather quickly. I have no need to prove anything to anybody; I feel as if I have a lot less vested interests than I did. I certainly don't feel the defensive urges that I once did when the topic of religion arises, and that's nice.

That certainly makes a lot of sense. I don't now feel a need to be personally responsible for everyone else's eternal destiny. I've got enough hassles of my own, thankyou very much...

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[info]midge3
2007-12-29 12:30 pm UTC (link)
Talking of sitting on the fence, this is something I've noticed:

There are some Christians who just don't seem to be able to understand me when I talk about my doubts - they just don't get it. But on the other hand, there are some agnostics (let alone atheists) who just don't seem to be able to accept that I still have some belief left.

As NT Wright said in another context:

The battle between them was not hand-to-hand fighting; the lines were drawn up some distance from each other, like North Parade and South Parade, a mile or more apart in North Oxford, leaving an uncomfortable no-man's-land between the Royalist and Parliamentarian troops in the English Civil War. Cannons fired from a distance allowed both sides to tell their supporters that they had won a victory. Those who ventured into the space in between tended to be shot at by both sides.

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[info]midge3
2007-12-29 12:15 pm UTC (link)
If I tell a Christian I'm struggling, and I don't know what to believe, they'll automatically assume I want to keep hold of my faith and return to full confidence in my old orthodoxy.

This sounds like a blanket generalisation to me. Am I included in this? If so, be honest and tell me to my face. Or (a) do you not count me as a Christian, or (b) do you not tell me you're struggling?

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-29 12:41 pm UTC (link)
Don't take it so personally. Yes, it's a generalisation, true in not all - but quite a few - cases.

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[info]midge3
2007-12-29 12:49 pm UTC (link)
OK, I just have the urge to challenge lazy generalisations, whether they're about 'Christians', 'women', 'men' or whoever. Generalisations have a habit of sounding like they apply.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-29 01:01 pm UTC (link)
I know - I tend to challenge them myself.

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[info]midge3
2007-12-29 12:51 pm UTC (link)
Especially as you sometimes seem to speak about people in your particular church as if they represent Christians in general.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-29 01:03 pm UTC (link)
I think we can all assume that of our own church, though.

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-21 12:46 pm UTC (link)
I was going to ask if I could link to this post from my up-and-coming Spirituality filter. As you've started off a lot of thinking in my mind, and I've replied to lots of comments, it would be helpful to point people over here for some background on my current thoughts. Is that OK with you?

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 01:03 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, sure, you're more than welcome to do that. I'm glad this post has provided some intellectual stimulation. :)

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[info]primitivepeople
2007-12-21 01:15 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! I'm just lazy and it saves me having to repeat myself. :)

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 01:38 pm UTC (link)
Ha, I know that lazy feeling. After all, I am an Arts student. ;)

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-19 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Follow where the evidence leads. It's all one can do. :)

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[info]axver
2007-12-20 09:44 am UTC (link)
Thanks - your comments mean a lot, as I wondered what you would say. I knew you'd understand the perspective of going where the available evidence leads. You're one of the respected theological discussion people alluded to in the entry. I wish a couple of the others would comment. I don't want to be like some people I know, who've lost friends and more over this sort of stuff.

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-20 05:58 pm UTC (link)
I imagine God grilling Christians in heaven:

"Why did you stop loving John?"
"Well, he rejected Your love!"
"Did he at any point cease to be your neighbor?"
"No, but didn't Paul say to cut people off from the community if they deconvert?"
"*sigh* What is the greatest commandment?"
"To love God with your entirety and love your neighbor as yourself."
"That's two commandments. You fail. AHAHAHA. Just kidding."
"uh...???"

But you get the point. (There's a good deal of exegetical argument behind that I won't get into.)

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 09:06 am UTC (link)
Haha!

You know, as a Christian I was a universalist, and I thought it would be a real kick to see the horror on fundies' faces when well-known agnostics, atheists, Muslims, Jews, etc. walked into Heaven.

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[info]tinandcopper
2007-12-21 04:13 pm UTC (link)
I heard Richard Dawkins sings Christmas songs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm). It would be funny on several levels if he sang better than most people.

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[info]axver
2007-12-22 03:47 am UTC (link)
Ha, that's awesome. I enjoy a few carols too. Trans-Siberian Orchestra do some really great adaptations.

Also, out of all of the prominent atheists with controversial books, I must say I rather like Richard Dawkins. Hitchens strikes me as a bit of a nut and I find his political views questionable, and Sam Harris has a tendency to go off half-cocked a bit too often, but Dawkins seems thoroughly reasonable.

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[info]isabelle_guns
2007-12-20 05:00 am UTC (link)
Religion in general makes me nervous.

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[info]axver
2007-12-20 09:46 am UTC (link)
Yeah, definitely. I'm particularly nervous about its role in the current US Presidential race. I don't want the leader of the world's most powerful country pandering to far right religious fanatics.

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[info]fugebabe8819
2007-12-20 05:32 am UTC (link)
Your beliefs are just that: yours. Your growth is not a betrayal to anyone, anyone who claims such a thing is being illogical. I've come a long way from the girl that tried to convince you to go to church. I thought that I could identify with the ambiguous term "Pagan" but have come to the same conclusion that you have--that we don't really know, and that it's silly to claim that we do. Your religious beliefs are the same as every other type of belief; which should be constantly evaluated and compared to newly discovered information.

I think admitting that one doesn't know allows for a more open mind when it comes to considering things.

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[info]axver
2007-12-20 09:49 am UTC (link)
'Your growth is not a betrayal to anyone, anyone who claims such a thing is being illogical.'

I ... intellectually know, but social ties are suffocatingly strong and I've heard of too many people who've lost friends over this stuff. It happened to one of my close friends this very year.

'Your religious beliefs are the same as every other type of belief; which should be constantly evaluated and compared to newly discovered information.'

Damn straight. Basically, my stance right now is that on the basis of all the evidence available to me, I see nothing to convince me of the existence of God, while there's plenty to point against it, but I'm honest enough to know that I only possess a small amount of the knowledge and as I come across more, something may point me in a different direction. I cannot be anything but agnostic.

It's funny how far we've theologically come, isn't it?

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[info]karinny
2007-12-20 08:32 am UTC (link)
There's no need to apologize for following your gut instinct. If more people did that, the world would probably be a better place. Good for you.

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[info]axver
2007-12-20 09:49 am UTC (link)
Thank you - I really appreciate a comment like that. :)

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[info]lovebri
2007-12-20 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Is it the year of religious doubt? I'm in the same boat, buddy. Although I have not separated myself quite as much from Christianity, it's quite close.

I've feared disappointing and worrying my Christian friends because I went into college proclaiming myself one and suddenly feel very removed from the doctrine and even the faith. As I've become more removed from my sudden conversion I've been able to look at it and the dogma I accepted unquestioningly with the conversion more objectively.

I agree with everyone else. We all must travel our own paths to spiritual truth. Good luck with meeting your teacher. Hopefully it will go better than you think.

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[info]axver
2007-12-21 10:40 am UTC (link)
Heh, it certainly does seem to be the year for religious doubt. A few other friends of mine have gone through various stages themselves, including one quite sharply to atheism.

I know what you mean about being more removed and able to look at things objectively. When I converted, I was only exposed to one perspective and I thought that was the Christian perspective. I was stunned when I uncovered just how much disagreement and diversity there is within Christianity; I gradually moved to a very liberal, universalist kind of Christianity. Amusingly enough, the seeds of my shift to agnosticism were planted when I sought to do quite the opposite; I wanted to actually prove my Christianity, create a robust theological system that could stand up to rigorous scrutiny. But the more I thought, studied, read, and debated, the less and less convinced I was of the most central tenets ...

It'll be interesting to see Johnno. I know he will be cool with my agnosticism and respect the intellectual principles ... I was always considerably influenced by him though, so it'll be interesting to see where discussion leads.

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