Axver ([info]axver) wrote,
@ 2007-08-16 23:33:00
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Current mood: really fucking tired
Current music:'Mekong Delta Blues' by Scorched Earth Policy
Entry tags:concerts, generork, israel, judaism, muse, public lectures, religion, university

Highlights of Axver's day:

1. This morning, I bought a ticket to see Muse here in Melbourne on the 15th of November. Got a pretty good seat too. As much as I enjoy most of Muse's music, I don't like them (or the sack of shit that is Black Holes And Revelations) enough to be bothered with the whole "lining up for ages to get a good spot in General Admission" thing. Plus, since I'm going alone, a seat suits me better anyway.

2. Ate far too much food with Kate this afternoon. At least I do a fair bit of walking these days in comparison to past standards of laziness and inactivity.

3. Indulged in generorky fun this evening by going to a public lecture at university. It was given by Michael B. Oren (perhaps best known for his book on the Six Day War) on the topic of "Jews, Statehood and Power: Israel and the Challenges to Jewish Morality". One of the courses I'm doing this semester is the History Of The Arab-Israeli Conflict, so this tied in rather nicely, especially as this week's focus was on the differing Israeli and Palestinian narratives of the creation of the state of Israel. Oren, who has not just studied Israeli history but served in the IDF, provided a rather interesting perspective and was a very engaging speaker. I won't try to provide an analysis of what he said or provide arguments about its validity, as I'm dead tired and no good could come of it. However, I will mention one side matter that struke me: the way in which Oren used holy texts such as those regarding Moses. It was interesting for someone such as myself, who has grown up in two countries where such texts are used to advance religious, theological purposes. Oren, of Jewish background, used them for a cultural purpose, something I have a hard time relating to but that I enjoyed hearing. It was nice to hear someone quote a religious text without then proceeding to force it down my throat. I was also surprised that when he was discussing figures such as Moses, Joshua, and Nehemiah, he spoke of the "Bible", not of the "Tanakh". Perhaps to cater to his audience? I don't know.

If I can get my lazy arse into gear, I have a few politically flavoured entries to write. Or maybe I'll just talk music. I've been enjoying plenty of new stuff lately.


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[info]cat_incarnate
2007-08-16 03:45 pm UTC (link)
So Kate DID make it to Australia alive! This is good.

Free lectures at school are *awesome*, especially for learning cool stuff outside my major.

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[info]axver
2007-08-17 08:41 am UTC (link)
Hee, yes, she made it safely. She's here at the moment and wants to let you know that she doesn't have the Internet at the moment. Personally, I don't know how it is that she hasn't gone completely mad yet.

I looked up what other lectures are on, but unfortunately, anything I could learn outside my major consists primarily of lectures on medicine or science that sound like they'd be a bit complex - not to mention dull to someone like me!

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[info]cat_incarnate
2007-08-17 01:23 pm UTC (link)
Ahhhhh, I understand not having internet. Believe it or not, it IS possible to survive without it. Your inbox will hate you, especially if you revieve lots of random newsletters like I do, but it can be done!

Clubs and departments at my school poster like mad (usually) when there's a speaker. That's actually one of the things I really enjoy about the Oberlin experience: the wacky promotional posters people put up. It's daily entertainment.

I think you should go to a science research one just to get an idea of the scientific institution. It's a unique beast.

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[info]axver
2007-08-18 12:32 am UTC (link)
Heh, when Kate checked her e-mails here yesterday, I think she had something like 160! I know she's trying to get the Internet set up, but things seem to be moving slowly there. Personally, I struggle to cope when my Internet is down for just a few hours.

A lot of clubs at my uni do chalking to announce stuff, which isn't of much use to me as I walk fast and pass everything without a chance to read more than half of it. And too much stuff has a tendency to be on Monday lunchtime, when I have a lecture, or on Tuesday, which is a crazily long day (9:30am to 5:45pm, but it means I barely have to go in the rest of the week!) and I'm in no mood to go to anything on Tuesday evening.

I'm somewhat tempted to go to one of the climate change public lectures or forums, but otherwise, none really sound all too exciting.

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[info]screwtape2
2007-08-16 03:51 pm UTC (link)
I hope you enjoy the Muse concert. The Desert Island Game has completely turned me off of them. Thanks in part to the numerous Black Holes And Revelations tracks.

The thing that stuck out in your journal was the line about how it was weird hearing holy texts for a cultural purpose. I can relate to that. It seems like any quoting of religious texts is used as a way of converting or somehow supporting a person's claims. It is refreshing to hear it in a setting of a cultural discussion. I hope the lecture was as fun as it sounds. I would have loved to spend an evening listening to a lecture like that. I must be a Generok too. ;)

Oh and more music posts.

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[info]axver
2007-08-17 08:44 am UTC (link)
All of their pre-Black Holes albums are worth your while. I cannot comprehend why people enjoy Black Holes so much; I can see why it would put someone off Muse. Knights Of Cydonia is the best song, and even then, it's a huge let-down. It feels to me like a 5-6 minute lead-up to nothing.

Yes, exactly! When he first mentioned the Bible, I thought "uh-oh, he isn't trying to advance something religious here, is he?" But I should have known better. I loved hearing someone talk about religious figures as an integral part of a culture as opposed to "so-and-so said this, so BELIEVE!" He used the story of Moses and the Jews in the desert in a similar way to how Aussies and Kiwis use the Gallipoli campaign or you Americans would use George Washington.

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[info]screwtape2
2007-08-18 10:20 am UTC (link)
Would Absolution be a good album to start with then?

Whenever someone says I'd like to quote the Bible I'm the same way. I've always looked at the figure and lessons in religion as not being a reason to believe but a reason to question or think for one's self. Holy texts are a great way of examining cultures. What better way to look at a people and way of life than what they view as ultimate clarity?

You know, I've always seen the story of Moses and the Jews as being more tragic than an example of gaining independence. He is basically forced to help these people. He is feared by others for rest of his life. He kills countless people. He becomes monster, victim and murderer all at once.

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[info]axver
2007-08-18 01:31 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, Absolution's pretty sweet. It has my favourite Muse track, Hysteria, along with other great songs like Time Is Running Out and Stockholm Syndrome. That said, 14 tracks is probably too many.

"What better way to look at a people and way of life than what they view as ultimate clarity?" That's a really good point. What I find just as interesting is the way the same text is used by different people. Just compare American evangelicals/fundies to Coptic Christians in Egypt, for example. I'm especially wary of people quoting from the Bible nowadays given how people in Western cultures are so incredibly culturally divorced from the culture of the authors.

I can't help myself: the political scientist in me causes me to see the story of Moses as a tool of "sanctified" political propaganda. After all, the evidence for the existence of Moses and the exodus is scant. However, as a story of cultural history, it contains powerful meanings and implications for those to whom it matters.

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[info]screwtape2
2007-08-18 02:13 pm UTC (link)
I'll try out Absolution then.

You bring up a good question. How can a country like America being materialistic, full of sin (according to the Ten Commandments) and being anything but a good samaritan be the Christian capitial of the world? Is it really faith or fear that drives Americans to religion? A religion can only last so long before culturally and technologically the followers can no longer relate to the holy text. I will never bring up the bible in any thing to do with modern issues because it has no relevance to America and most countries that follow it. So I comepletely agree with you.

I think for the Christian right the story of Moses is a tool for putting forward a modern day Pascal's Wager. It is used basically as an attack on the non-believers. It is better to follow or look at what will happen. The story was not a warning as much as the far right would like to suggest.

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[info]axver
2007-08-18 02:26 pm UTC (link)
Let me know what you think of it. I feel that on the whole, the first half is better than the second half, though that's not to say there isn't great stuff on the second half.

To someone from New Zealand, the US honestly seems religiously stuck in the past. Rather than the Christian capital of the world, I perceive it as the Christian backwater, stuck in a past where the creation versus evolution debate has not yet been decisively resolved in evolution's favour and where people actually still think Noah's Ark is an even remotely plausible idea rather than an impossible myth related to the Epic of Gilgamesh. It's rather interesting that when you do a statistical comparison, the US is where New Zealand was about 75-100 years ago. I feel it is neither faith nor fear that drives Americans to religion, but a socio-cultural climate where religion retains an explanatory power for general people and a political purpose for elites. I really like your statement that "A religion can only last so long before culturally and technologically the followers can no longer relate to the holy text." It is interesting to note how some fundies and other religious figures in the US are increasingly twisting and distorting the Bible in a desperate attempt to cling and relate to it. Sooner or later, they will be shown to be the spiritual cowards or charlatans that they are. I know, I could write all day on this topic.

I find it amusing that the far right would use the story of Moses as a sort of lesson in "follow don't think". That strikes me as disingenious. If you even merely skim Exodus, you quickly realise that blindly following leads you to all kinds of pitfalls and causes all sorts of mistakes. You end up wandering in the desert for forty years! I suppose the US is on the way to its forty years. Come on, Reagan and Dubya? I'm astounded that anyone voted for those braindead pseudo-humanoids.

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[info]axver
2007-08-18 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I feel that perhaps my previous comment was too scathing on religion. Have you ever come across the work of Protestant theologian Paul Tillich? The man is absolutely brilliant and puts forth a sane form of Christianity. I suppose it's more likely that you're familiar with John Shelby Spong, who I understand viewed Tillich as a mentor. The difference is that while Spong does a spectacular job of stripping the Christian religion of everything that makes it Christianity, Tillich provides a theology even more meaningful than anything Protestant orthodoxy could have hoped to create. My favourite joke about Tillich is that his theology is an "atheism for Christians and a Christianity for atheists".

If I don't fully slip into agnosticism (perhaps I have already?), I know I'll be a very "Tillichian" sort of person. And Søren Kierkegaard. I think very highly of Kierkegaard.

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[info]screwtape2
2007-08-18 11:29 pm UTC (link)
I have not but I will look for his work now that you bring him up. I also think highly Kierkegaard. Those German philosophers are simply brilliant.

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[info]axver
2007-08-19 11:40 am UTC (link)
Tillich's best works are probably The Courage To Be and Dynamics Of Faith. He presents a very interesting argument for a Christian theologian: "God does not exist." He doesn't mean what you think he means. Wikipedia has this short Tillich quote that I think explains it most succinctly: "God does not exist. He is being itself beyond essence and existence. Therefore to argue that God exists is to deny him."

And I can't tell who you're referring to with your comment about German philosophers - Kierkegaard was very much Danish (his last name means "church yard"), but yes, Tillich was originally a German, though he later accepted a teaching position in the States and became a US citizen. Germany does seem to have produced some of the best philosophical and theological minds - Europe in general has, really. I must admit, I've come to shy away from US theologians recently; amongst those whose worldview is shaped through coming to maturity in the US, there is all too often a common thread of religious assumptions that are taken as given. I especially find that European philosophers and theologians are far more ready to deny any idea of an immanent or personal deity and understand the concept of deity with a sense of nuance foreign to even liberal American theology. My impression of a lot of liberal American theologians is that they are dancing around the obvious, too afraid to challenge the dominant strands of thought.

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[info]screwtape2
2007-08-19 01:35 pm UTC (link)
I just read the wikipedia article on him and his beliefs are actually logical. I never thought I'd say that about a Christian theologian. Ironically when he says we basically need to update the bible I can't help but think of Friedrich Nietzsche's Sprach Ur Zarathustra. Or perhaps it my own atheistic belief that lead to that connection. I'll see which books I can find of his.

I always confuse Kierkegaard for being German. The European philophers I love our Sartre, Nietzsche and Hegel. I think what makes them far superior in challenging things than say US philosophers, is the very contemplative and outside-the-box thinking in thier nature. This is very clear in French and German philosophers. I think when it comes to American theologians there is almost a sense of skipping steps to achieve an answer. Maybe it is just an American trait to not be as detailed in creating such ideas? I can't say there are many American philosophers that appeal to me. In many ways, I feel more European than American when it comes to my own philosophy.

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[info]axver
2007-08-20 11:21 am UTC (link)
Hah! Yeah, some Christian theologians are just ... insane. I've read my fair share, and what particularly irks me is that those who are prominent are either two-bit hacks whose arguments leak like sieves (see Lee Strobel), are just plain extreme (anyone on the far right!), or some have brilliant minds but really let themselves down by committing logical fallacies (C. S. Lewis, e.g. the Trilemma). And, well, the further back in history you go ... have you ever read anything by John Calvin? I have a fascination with Calvin's contribution to politics. The man was insane, though I actually prefer him to Martin "religion must blot out the eye of reason" Luther.

I really need to get my hands on Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra. I nearly bought it once but decided I needed to be frugal and save my money. I regret that now. I've also been meaning to read Sartre - though I imagine I'll probably get to the Kiwi band The Jean-Paul Sartre Experience first! ;) Interesting you mention Hegel though, as Kierkegaard was strongly critical of some aspects of Hegelianism. I appreciate Kierkegaard most for his vehement attack on empty Christian practices, churches that dither about this and that and ignore the whole "love your neighbour" stuff. As my Interference signature quotes, "mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity".

I think many American philosophers just do not have the cultural experiences of the Europeans. The US is a country of young and passionate religion, not of old and stale religion. The US has also had a religious culture where religious quibbles lead to the disputing parties going their own way, while European religion has always been more institutionalised and debates about even the most minor issues are beaten to death. That might be at least partly why European philosophers get so much more stuck into the details and are less inclined to skip a step. But I don't know. I'm just an observer from an even younger country that is yet to produce any truly great philosophical minds, partly due to its willingness to dispense with old ideas when they are outright discredited. I will never be able to understand those within US religion who seem determined to maintain as much of the 17th century as possible, no matter how badly it's discredited.

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[info]screendoor3
2007-08-17 05:31 am UTC (link)
One can never have enough food. That's what they invented vomitoriums for.

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[info]axver
2007-08-17 08:48 am UTC (link)
That sounds rather bulimic to me!

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[info]screendoor3
2007-08-17 07:22 pm UTC (link)
I was referring to feasts...I have never been bulimic.

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[info]axver
2007-08-18 12:26 am UTC (link)
Yeah, but if you were going to open a theme park for bulimics, "vomitorium" sounds like a damn appropriate name, heh.

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